I'm lukewarm on Kucinich, but for the love of reason

please stop trying to say he's somehow in league with the right because he opposes the health care legislation. That's just embarrassingly stupid.

I don't know that I agree with him, that this legislation would be worse than the status quo. I'm almost in a place where I think anything would be better than that, but Dennis believes that to be so. He doesn't want to deny healthcare to people, like the pukes you're trying to associate him with. He wants single payer which is about as diametrically opposed to what the pukes want as you can get.

agree with him or not, he doesn't have a RW bone in his body.

thank you for this post, Cali.

completely and totally.

you're more than welcome.

try and associate him with the right as you've been doing.

The implication that the HCR bills contain nothing but puppies and sunbeams is dishonest.

Let's say rather that the goals of a real reformer might temporarily intersect with those of a mere obstructionist, given the weak-ass legislation this Congress tries to pass off as "reform."

While we would all love to see single-payer and we are all for free-thinkers in our party, the single-payer bill I believe was brought to a vote and didn't pass, that's how democracy works. So if he can't have single-payer and isn't happy with the status quo, he should vote in lock-step being he wears a D. Anything less would be complying to the RW, even though I agree with others that he doesn't have a RW bone in his body. A yes vote wouldn't hurt him, but a no vote....who knows. I doubt he will be campaiging on the platform of "Vote for me, I voted against healthcare reform". (Again, that would be a RW move which I doubt he would do) Might not go over too well with his constituents.

But lets pass the buck on such strategizing too

that bad.

But nope, they're not getting any and they watered down and compromised the bill badly enough to lose several progressive Dems in addition to Kucinich.

and we're all mad at the One Democrat resisting the greatly weakened bill? Shouldn't we all be fuming about all those GOPers we have been destroying our bills to please?

Put back half the stuff stripped out of the bill, for which Democrats have gotten the current big zero GOP votes, and Dennis would probably gladly climb back on board.

.... that bill deserves to DIE.

the Democrats should just go ahead and pass an effective bill. That I totally agree with.

Making insurance companies richer isn't my idea of health "care" reform, either.

most of it is coming from one who has made a DU career of accusing everyone else here of "intellectual dishonesty."

The "logic" employed by some here would embarrass a child.

... too.

That doesn't stop anybody around here from saying it.

but I do think that Obama is constricted by corporate interests.

You don't know. There's more then one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes. He's killing health care reform and there's only one group that wants that done.

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The Republicans and Democrats have definite disagreements between each other. But they are small in scope when compared with the scale of our social and economic problems.

The financial elite represent the controlling interest in both parties, and set the limits on what kinds of debate is allowed.

So, quibbling over the length of our current occupations, or withdraw timetables and the like is allowed. But no discussion of ending our policy of global military hegemony, is permitted. No discussion of closing our bases in foreign countries at all corners of the globe, bringing those troops home and returning to a policy of actual direct Defense rather than economic military "Offense" can be discussed. Anyone discussing it is branded a "lunatic" or "fringe" or not a "serious" politician.

You can debate the best strategy for "victory" in Afghanistan, but you are not permitted to question the actual ridiculous notion of a global "war on terror" - nor are you allowed to follow the money and see who has been reaping (or perhaps raping) billions of dollars of profit(eering) off of this manufactured state of perpetual war.

Just as an example of things deemed "out of bounds" for either political party by our rulers.

so laughable here that I can hardly take any of this seriously. If this is the kind of logic that supposedly engaged and intelligent, liberal people have stooped to then we are in for more trouble that we can even imagine, and we can imagine a lot.

Just one of the reasons I mostly read here now.

Cali, for once I can say thank you for bringing something up that needed saying.

I want single payer too, but honestly if this bill doesn't pass then what do we have? The SAME damn system we have now and a blank sheet of paper like the repukes want. Meanwhile I lose a family member to cancer because she can't get treatment, maybe you will lose someone due to pre-existing condition, or not able to afford healthcare. No this isn't great but it is better than we have and since we can't even work enough together on our side to get a public option passed, what makes you think we can work together to pass single payer. We might win over more to get a public option since there are 37 signed on, but that is about as far as look to go. You promise me you can get our side together enough to pass single payer and I will back Dennis, now let's see that. OK I am waiting!

who would like the opportunity to find a way to afford health insurance.

The bill allows for recission due to "fraud and misrepresentation" and there's nothing stopping them from dicking you around with paperwork for years before you can get treatment.

They could have covered people with preexisting conditions and poor people simply by extending Medicaid to them.

Same bullshit, different congresscritter.

He is an ineffective legislator, so he takes the 'soap box' route.

And his ego along with it.

they say the road to hell is paved by good intentions. No matter his intentions the REALITY is he is working toward the same goal as the right wingers. That should open up his (and other people's) eyes, but sadly he remains willfully ignorant.

when so many Dems were voting for all of Bush's policies and Dennis was voting against them?

nor does that action give him a free pass now.

Did he get some kind of Lifetime Achievement Award for being right about the war that means he gets to be right about everything?

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are the same ones who didn't have shit to say about Landrieu, Nelson, LIEberman and their ilk. So apparently it's perfectly fine for blue dogs to have objections, and when they do the party will do whatever it takes to secure their votes but when someone to the left objects, suddenly the same party sycophants are crying that they (the ones on the left of course) are ruining EVERYTHING and are in line with the right wing. Meanwhile you give a pass to the actual right wingers for their bullshit.

I'm calling foul on the idiocy of calling out Kucinich and accusing him of being in line with the right wing when those who actually screwed up the bill are getting a pass.

If you don't like the way I do it. I really couldn't care less. Feel free if you must to ignore me but I will use any fucking language I care to. So kindly take your condescending attitude and shove it.

And I don't give any passes to anybody. I think that any 'no' vote is a problem. Even if it comes from St. Dennis. See, I can multitask. I can think Landrieu, Nelson and Lieberman are wrong AND that Kucinich is wrong, too!! The practical effect of a 'no' vote is that this bill will be killed and there won't be any change to the current system of health care for another decade, at least. Which, if that works for you, fine. But since I have a pre-existing medical condition and cannot get insurance and I don't want to DIE, it doesn't work as well for me.

Oh, and a hearty "Fuck Off!!" to you, too.

"maverick" So I stand by what I said.

And a mighty fuck off to you too. You want to condescend to someone? Find someone willing to put up with that bullshit. I am not the one. Piss off.

proposed health care reform, that includes reform, the right has not. Sometimes two paths converge briefly, that in no way indicates that they are leading to the same place.

The tally of 'ayes' and 'nays' has no entry for why a vote is cast, just the totals determining if it passes. A vote against this now, for whatever reason, is a vote to uphold and perpetuate the present condition of the health care industry. If Rep. Kucinich votes no, that is what he is actually doing, and he needs to be judged accordingly.

"A vote against this now, for whatever reason, is a vote to uphold and perpetuate the present condition of the health care industry."

I see it in precisely the opposite light. This bill will preserve an industry that is currently set to fail on demographic measures alone. By mandating the purchase of their defective product, we would be stuck with this god awful industry indefinitely.

It also subsidizes the purchase of insurance for many, making the p
The bill is hardly the ideal solution, and certainly is not the best course for dolving the problem. That would be the expansion of Medicare to all, and the destruction of the private health insurance industry. But the bill is some improvement on the present situation, and may well be the best that can be got through under present political conditions.

It's going to make it a lot more difficult to actually extricate ourselves from this swamp, in the long run.

Whether it makes extrication more difficult in the long run is an open question, however, in my view. It could be the beginning of taming the industry into something on the lines of a regulated public utility, which is a natural enough model for providing the service of payment from a pooled fund.

But see, what I THINK doesn't matter. The practical effect of a 'no' vote is that nothing gets done and the status quo is maintained.

because we are institutionalizing private for-profit insurance companies into the healthcare equation.
Now, arguments can be made as to whether meaningful regulations can keep the industry in check or not...I personally do not believe this is possible with the evidence all around us of how easily regulations and oversight have been flouted on the economic front.
We need a systemic change and this is NOT it.

legislation DK is just not doing enough. If you didn't have access to the last 50 years actual experience with Health Insurers deception, bad service, abuses, and unrelenting rate hikes, there should be enough evidence in the last 4 weeks of unconscionable rate hikes to not want those thieves participating under penalty of law in our health care future.

We are the Federation, Health Insurers are the Borg.

We don't generally judge the plights of those negatively affected by legislation (or not helped at all) by merely pointing to those who benefited. It's easy to knock dissenters for their votes independent of the party. It's less easy (it seems) for the knockers to credit the dissenters' foresight when buyers remorse sets in. Sen. Feingold's dissent on the Patriot Act comes to mind . . . we were also told that that bill would save lives.

The Senate needs to reconcile with a strong public option. If that takes voting with the CONobstanants against those few DepubliCONS in our ranks, so be it.

We're in our own hundred year war on this issue of Health Care. A concerted offensive may involve embracing our enemies as H-day approaches.

Voting with the Republicans does not help matters in the slightest.

And your analogy is wrong: the alliance with Stalin was for a shared, single purpose, the defeat and overthrow of Hitler. Until that objective was achieved, the effort was unified and reasonably amicable. Obviously, both sides manouvered for advantage in the future that would come after the objective was achieved, but that is a different thing. No one really suggests Rep. Kucinich shares the long term goals of the Republicans, but he does align himself with them in effective support of some of their short term goals, and he should not do it. In a sense, when he does that, it does not matter that his long term goals are different: there is little chance his long term goals will ever be achieved, so his actions cannot really be considered steps towards them, but there remains a good chance the long range goals of the Republicans will be achieved, and any short term goal they notch up is a concrete step towards that achievement.

For better or worse, Sir, the present state of political play is that failure to pass a bill will be a tremendous boon to the Republicans, and utter disaster for the Democratic Party. Rep. Kucinich should vote appropriately, as should all Democrats.

That's more a function of failed leadership than it is the fault of a single Congressman standing on principle. For the life of me, I can't figure out how supposed liberals on this site are more pissed about why Kucinich says he's voting this down, but seem to have no problem with a gang of misogynist pieces of shit like Stupak threatening to shitcan the bill because they can't get their pandering nonsense in it.

Then again, that silence kind of speaks for itself.

There have, even so, been denunciations of Stupak, from the start of his shennanigans, but since they produce little conflict, they tend to sink down out of sight in short order.

Single payer is "diametrically opposed to what the pukes want"? According to some it's very popular with everyone.

If the bill doesn't pass it will be because the party hasn't done the work necessary to make it passable.

Everytime I see a post like that- in regards to DK or any other real liberal, it just leaves me shaking my head. The posters are either stupid or dishonest.

as Dennis seems to believe on HCR.

Didn't Obama himself say that the only reason to delay single-payer was that we first had to take back the white house (check) and congress (check)?

Sooo...?

BRIBE$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

which is the most important stuff to say 'no' to...

The Kucinich hate threads are annoying and counterproductive and primarily dishonest. Everyone knows his true position if they have paid attention to him as well as his politics. Nothing new.

I don't understand why people at DU insist on throwing him under the bus. He has the courage to stand up to his convictions. That is so rare, and so much needed in politicians. In this case (health care), I think he's wrong. I think we should hold our noses and support the current bill.

But I won't throw DK under the bus. I think he has integrity, and that deserves respect.

Now who else besides Kucinich can we smear that isn't bought off by Wall Street and corporate America?

If the "swift-boating" character assassination campaign worked so well against Nader it sure as hell can work against Kucinich.

out of frustration. Understandable. But I disagree. Kucinich always proved to be right, even when I disagreed.

says a helluva lot about you and your politics even if you are standing up for him now.

which is why I prefer Bernie to Dennis. And everyone knows you're simply ragging on me cause you can't stand me, sweetheart. It all seems to stem from my knocking your hero, little johnny hedgefund. poor wittle you.

by any stretch of the imagination.

And fyi- Edwards is just another corrupt politician in a string of many.

At this point, I trust very few politicians at all.

Kucinich and maybe a couple of others.

andx that's not liberal. you're bullshit is so transparent.

but you always give me a laugh with your bitter and stupid.

proves what an airhead you are.

The reasons may be different. But if the out come is the exact same thing, it doesn't matter to me. I simply don't care. My pre-existing condition and that of my little boy will continue to matter. Fuck DK and the Republicans, both of them. If he gets lumped in with them, I'm not going to shed a tear. I don't extend the same vitriol to my fellow DUers who stand with him. But Kucinich should know better, because his direct actions are accomplishing this. He's killing it and I don't care why he's doing it. It affects me and millions more like me. He's pulling the trigger along with the Repubs. He deserves the crap he's getting for it. Period. If he can't face the music, maybe he should rethink his actions.

K & R

more than Dennis.

but whatever one may say about dennis, his heart is in the right place.

but I truly agree w/ Dennis. Yes, he is the ultimate Idealist, but one can never refer to him as a hypocrite.

is just more proof that the Democratic Party has truly become nothing but the "liberal" wing of the Republican Party.

Kucinich, a progressive who represents what the Democratic Party used to be before it became neoconservative and militaristic and abandoned a social agenda, should be applauded for opposing the Mandatory Insurance Industry Support Bill. He's under no obligation to approve a bad bill just so the Democratic Party can claim a victory before the 2010 elections.

His vote against pseudo-HCR doesn't place him on the same side as Republicans. He's voting against the bill for reasons that are 180 degrees removed from the Republican agenda. Republicans oppose progress; Kucinich opposes pseudo-progress.

tactics against Dennis are so out of line..it makes me not want to come here anymore!..It is a disgrace! That makes me want to scream! It is making me not want to be a dem anymore!..and I have been a lifelong dem 38 years registered dem and even an elected dem..but this has gone too far for me to stomach!

It isn't what you say that is important it is what you do.

I believe he is trying to make something better out of this. He's not, all or nothing. I believe after listening to what he said today that he's trying to make them put in a public option and he has to do this by not accepting the insurance bill as it stands. If they do this, he will vote for the bill, IMHO. He did vote for the original one. It's too bad that he is being smeared as being a Republican for actually doing something political all on his own.

This needed to be said.

I think Dennis offends some people here because he reminds them of everything they used to believe in but compromised away.

Keep those insurance customers coming now.

I misread or read past something too often myself, so no biggie.

He opposes an insurance bail-out.

Is that a better term?

Ducks quack.

Some people's brains need more exercise.



I know, I am mean sometimes.

And to the knee-jerk Dennis bashers: Stop the insanity, please.

but the fact is, Mr. Kucinich has an outstanding progressive record!

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 95 percent in 2008.

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_...

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association 100 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to National Farmers Union's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 75.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 93 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the The Humane Society Legislative Fund 108 percent in 2007-2008. Members of Congress who led as prime sponsors of pro-animal legislation received "extra-credit" equivalent to one vote or one co sponsorship, 17% for a Senator or 8% for a Representative of the House.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 100 percent in 2007-2008

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Arab American Institute's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 100.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 100 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Leadership Conference on Civil Rights's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 87.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 90 percent in 2007-2008..

2007-2008 In 2007-2008 National Education Association gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Latin America Working Group 75 percent in 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Environment America 85 percent in 2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 93 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 85 percent in the First and Second Sessions of Congress in 2007-2008..


2008 In 2008 Citizens for Global Solutions gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Friends Committee on National Legislation 100 percent in 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Peace Action West 100 percent in 2008


2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association 100 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the National Right to Life Committee 0 percent in 2007-2008..


Agriculture Issues


2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the National Association of Wheat Growers 89 percent in 2008.

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to National Farmers Union's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 75.


Animal Rights and Wildlife Issues



2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 93 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the The Humane Society Legislative Fund 108 percent in 2007-2008. Members of Congress who led as prime sponsors of pro-animal legislation received "extra-credit" equivalent to one vote or one co sponsorship, 17% for a Senator or 8% for a Representative of the House.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100+ percent in both sessions of Congress in 2007-2008.


Campaign Finance and Election Issues


2007 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the League of Women Voters 80 percent in 2007.



Education


2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 90 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 In 2007-2008 National Education Association gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A.


Employment and Affirmative Action


2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Latin America Working Group 75 percent in 2008.




Energy Issues


2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Alliance to Stop the War on the Poor - Affordable Energy 0 percent in 2007-2008.

Environmental Issues


2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Environment America 85 percent in 2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 93 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 85 percent in the First and Second Sessions of Congress in 2007-2008.

Foreign Aid and Policy Issues


2008 In 2008 Armenian National Committee of America gave Representative Kucinich a grade of B+.

2008 In 2008 Citizens for Global Solutions gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Friends Committee on National Legislation 100 percent in 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Peace Action West 100 percent in 2008.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the ACT! for America 0 percent in 2007-2008 when voting on Issues in the 110th Congressional Session.

2007-2008 In 2007-2008 Council for a Livable World gave Representative Kucinich a rating of 87 percent..

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of +3.



Labor


2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2008

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the AFL-CIO - Lifetime 96 percent during their legislative career up until 2008..

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 86 percent in 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees - Lifetime 97 percent during their legislative career up until 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Latin America Working Group 75 percent in 2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2008.


2008 In 2008 United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers rated politicians in selected states. They gave Representative Kucinich a rating of 100.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Utility Workers Union of America 100 percent in 2008.

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Federally Employed Women's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 80.

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the United Food & Commercial Workers 100 percent in 2007-2008.

2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans - Lifetime 92 percent during their legislative career up until 2008.

. 2007 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the PFLAG, Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays 100 percent in 2007..

2008 In 2008 Drum Major Institute for Public Policy gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A+.

2008 In 2008 NETWORK, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby gave Representative Kucinich a rating of 83 percent

2007-2008 Based on the votes, committee votes, co-sponsorships and other leadership actions that took place between 2007-2008 the Secular Coalition for America assigned Representative Kucinich a grade of A+. With grades ranging from a high of A+ to a low of F.

2007-2008 In 2007-2008 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Representative Kucinich a grade of A.

2006 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 100 percent in 2006.

2008 In 2008 The Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law gave Representative Kucinich a grade of 94 percent..

2007-2008 Representative Kucinich supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 90 percent in 2007-2008.

2007-2008 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Federally Employed Women's position, Representative Kucinich received a rating of 80.

2007-2008 On the votes used to calculate its ratings, the National Organization for Women attaches more value to those votes it considers more important. For 2007-2008, the National Organization for Women gave Representative Kucinich a rating of 87 percent..


http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_...

.

There are a number of posters on DU who are idiologically identical to Bush's 28%...only their Bush is Obama. If Obama's for it, they're for it, and anyone who's against it is a goddamn rethug.